Maria Eugenia Cornou and Mikie Roberts on the Doxological and Historical Significance of the Nicene Creed

What I appreciate, though, in terms of how the Creed has shaped the Christian faith over the centuries—and maybe it's the musician in me—is the doxological component of the Creed. Even if there is a difficulty in agreeing and reaching a theological consensus, there is something about the Creed that lends itself to an almost automatic doxological outburst. And I guess when you constantly read the text—and not just read it through the theological lens or not just reading it as a strange piece of document—it sort of becomes imbibed in your bloodstream. It does lend itself to this doxological component. I think that for me means too that somehow throughout the centuries, this element of the doxa I think has also served as a way of keeping not only the text alive, but the essence of the text and maybe somewhat the spiritual ethos of the Council itself.  

From the Calvin Institute of Christian Worship, you are listening to Public Worship in the Christian Life, a podcast that amplifies people and stories that share wisdom and wonder about Christian public worship. This season's guests, hosted by my colleague Dr. Noel Snyder, reflect on the affirmation of faith in the Nicene Creed in commemoration of its 1,700th anniversary. The first ecumenical council in 325 was a gathering of Christian bishops in Nicaea, located in present-day Turkey, as the first attempt to reach consensus in the church through an assembly representing all of Christendom and to affirm the Christian faith in the triune God. Much has changed in the life of the church these past 1,700 years, but the Creed the Council agreed upon is still recited and continues to shape us as a church. Welcome to the podcast.

Hello, and welcome. My name is Noel Snyder. I'm a program manager at the Calvin Institute of Christian Worship, and I'll be your host for this brief season of the podcast in which we will focus on the Nicene Creed with this year being the 1,700th anniversary of the Council of Nicaea. My guests for today are Mikie Roberts and María Cornou. Just a brief introduction for each of them: Rev. Dr. Mikie Roberts is an ordained minister in the Moravian Church, and he serves as program executive for spiritual life and for faith and order with the World Council of Churches. Dr. María Cornou is a colleague of mine here at the Calvin Institute of Christian Worship, where she serves as associate director and program manager. Mikie and María, welcome.

Thank you so much.

So I wonder if we could just begin with—for some of our listeners who may not know, could you tell us a little bit about the World Council of Churches? What is it, and how did each of you become involved with it?

Well, Noel, let me begin since, as the one who is attached to the World Council of Churches, I always say to persons when they ask me, “What do you do, and where do you work?” and you say the World Council of Churches and, believe it or not, even from some ordained ministers you get the next question of “What is that?” And so I usually say to them, ”Well, you know the United Nations?” They say yeah, yeah. So I then say, “OK, we are the church's version of the United Nations.” And I think that's a simple way of putting the framework together. The WCC, of course, was officially founded and established in 1948 with its first assembly, but even before that time, there were several movements that would have all come together to create what we today know as the World Council of Churches. It would have been the Student Christian Movement of the early 1900s. Actually, around 1937–38, about a hundred churches had voted together to form the WCC then, but of course the Second World War broke out, so that was delayed until after the war. So you had the Student Christian Movement of the 1900s; you then had the Faith and Order Movement that was also very popular at that period of time; and then you had the Life and Work [Movement] in terms of the social ministries and international affairs. All of these international gatherings and international initiatives finally came together and formed what we now know today as the World Council of Churches. The headquarters is in Geneva, and currently, based on the last count from around 2013, the membership of the WCC stands at 345 member churches, with about half a billion membership throughout the whole world. It includes predominantly Protestant Western churches but also there are Orthodox member churches, Pentecostal, African-initiated churches, and so the fellowship of churches continues to grow. How I became involved with the WCC? I am, as you said in the introduction, from the Caribbean, originally from Antigua, and the province that I'm associated with is the eastern West Indies province of the Moravian Church. So as a member church, whenever there is a vacancy within the WCC, of course all of the member churches are made aware of any vacancies and encouraged to submit applications. And so I did that, and voila, here I am, since 2019.

And how about you, María? How did you get involved with the WCC?

Well, at the Worship Institute, we have had a strong relationship especially with Mikie or with the Office of Spiritual Life throughout the years. And I received Mikie's invitation to serve as a member of the spiritual life team for the 2025 Sixth World Conference of Faith and Order that will be commemorating also the 1,700th anniversary of the Nicaea Council. The invitation came to our executive team, and we considered that this was a very good fit given our mission and our core values, especially two of them: our global perspective and our commitment to engage with a wide ecumenical audience.

Thank you. And thanks for also introducing the topic of the 1,700th anniversary of the Council of Nicaea. Could you tell us a little bit about those upcoming commemoration events or maybe one major event? What is the WCC doing to mark this significant anniversary?

We are now preparing for what is being called the Sixth World Conference of Faith and Order. Naturally, if we are at number six, it means that we had from the first to the fifth. And the fifth one actually took place in Compostela in 1993. The WCC normally, through its Faith and Order Commission, normally has these major gatherings. It is an opportunity for the Faith and Order Commission to not only share with the rest of the membership of the WCC, and by extension the global church, the most recent of its writings and findings and sort of also unpack its mandate, but [it’s] also an opportunity for the Faith and Order Commission to receive from the member churches where are those areas that need to be further explored and further unpacked. And so each gathering of the Faith and Order World Conference has a particular theme, and this year's theme raises the question: Where now for visible unity? It is a very direct question. And I think what the question is seeking to raise is, as we look at the 1,700 years since the Nicene Creed, which seeks to address the issues of the common expression of the Christian faith and unity, how do we in this day and in this generation address some of those issues? So this event that is later to take place in October—t is October 24–28—will be happening in Alexandria, in Egypt. And with this theme, Where Now for Visible Unity?, we are happy to be able to explore that through three critical lenses: faith, mission, and unity. It is noteworthy that the conference has been hosted by the Coptic Orthodox Church from Egypt. It is also noteworthy to highlight that this conference is taking place in a country where Christianity is the minority. It is happening on the African continent. It is also happening in a place which can be identified as located in the Middle East. So there is this duality of location. And it is also happening in the desert. And so it is an opportunity for us to also explore the spirituality of the Desert Fathers and Mothers and to also see how the context in which the conference will be held will also help to shape some of those discussions as we answer and grapple with the question Where now for visible unity? and to do so through these three pillars. One of the things that makes the Faith and Order Commission very unique as well is that even though the Roman Catholic Church is not an official member of the World Council of Churches, the Roman Catholic Church, through its Dicastery for Promoting Christian Unity, has actually a sizable portion of commissioners who sit on the Faith and Order Commission. So by virtue of the presence of the Roman Catholic Church, these persons are appointed by the Vatican, and so they come with that full endorsement of the Holy See. And so we now have as well this particular space where the theology and the ecclesiology that is being unwrapped is not just being done, if you want to say, exclusively among participants or exclusively among Orthodox family members, but also the Vatican through its Catholic members are also vitally a part of that discussion. And so we are very excited that we now can say we are working toward the Sixth World Conference. And of course, we are really trying to see how, as we wrestle with this question and look at these three pillars, to do so with the understanding of what does the Nicene Creed contribute as we seek to grapple with the ongoing question of visible unity.

It sounds like there's a lot that has gone into this and is going to continue to go into this planning and into that gathering, and I appreciate you sharing those details with us. And it has me wondering: As you think about your work in ecumenical spaces—so at the Calvin Institute of Christian Worship, like María said, we do a lot of work, it's essential to our mission that we are working interdenominationally, cross-denominationally, with an ecumenical openness and engagement. And of course, the very foundation of the WCC is working in that sort of spirit of ecumenical cooperation and engagement. So as you think about ecumenical work in relation to the Nicene Creed, what stands out to you about the historical significance of this anniversary of the Council of Nicaea in 325?

Well, of course, it's a complex history. But I would say that I think it's the wisdom of bringing together respected church leaders to discuss theological matters in order to strengthen the unity of the church. And obviously, despite the many debates, I appreciate the possibility and the opportunity the council gave to listening to each other. It was like a two-month process, so there was time for this kind of interaction and seeking consensus on important theological matters. I think that that's part of the legacy of this council.

I think for me, one of the things—and I fully agree with María in terms of finding theological consensus as someone who is actively around the table here at the WCC. I know how difficult and challenging it is to reach consensus. You know, a comma in the wrong place could have a sentence be fully deleted because it just says something. So when you look at the end product of the Nicene Creed itself and what the Council of Nicaea would have achieved and the fact that it was not done overnight, I think it also points to just how important it is for this collective discernment. What I appreciate, though, in terms of how the Creed has shaped the Christian faith over the centuries—and maybe it's the musician in me—is the doxological component of the Creed. Even if there is a difficulty in agreeing and reaching a theological consensus, there is something about the Creed that lends itself to an almost automatic doxological outburst. And I guess when you constantly read the text— and not just read it through the theological lens, or not just read it as a strange piece of document—it sort of becomes imbibed in your bloodstream. It does lend itself to this doxological component. I think that for me means too that somehow throughout the centuries, this element of the doxa I think has also served as a way of keeping not only the text alive, but the essence of the text and maybe somewhat of the spiritual ethos of the Council itself. Of course we don't have the privilege of sitting there and capturing it, and there would not have been a podcast or something to say, “Here's what happening.” But I think this element of the doxa is seen throughout as we go from the description of the theological impetus of Father, Son, and Spirit, and by extension church and even the end of times.

That's beautiful. And as you say, there's this significance to the way that the Council brought people together in seeking consensus. But then there's also the significance in producing this statement that then does shape the history of the church as we profess it as the core of our faith and as we allow it to become a doxological statement in the life of the church and in life of individuals. So I wonder if you could just reflect a little bit more, then, as we think about some of the historical significance of the way that that text of the Creed, first formulated in 325 and then also edited and reaching its final form in 381 at the Council of Constantinople, if you could talk about how that Creed not only has shaped the history of the church but how it’s also relevant to life and ministry today? How do you see its ongoing significance for ministry in the present day?

It certainly has far-reaching impact for ministry today. And one of the lessons that we are constantly reminding ourselves of here, especially from the World Council of Churches, [is] that when you look across our three hundred-plus member churches, there are some parts of our fellowship, I would jokingly say, if you wake them up at 3 a.m. and ask them what is the second line of the Nicene Creed on the clause that speaks to the . . . And they can tell you. They may not go back to sleep, but they can certainly tell you what there is, because the Creed is so much of a part of who they are in terms of the sense of Christian identity. Then you come to another aspect or another side of the membership of the WCC where, if you also walk into a church on a Sunday morning and ask them to join in the Nicene Creed, you have a faithful Christian who may ask you, “Join in what? What is that?” And so how then do you navigate these two extremes, these two polarities, and to say to the one who knows it so well, that probably has taken it for granted, and to the other who does not know it at all and may see it as strange, how do you ask them to engage in this text through new lenses? And I think what we are then trying to do, even in this present day, . . . at least from where I am sitting particularly as the program executive for spiritual life is to explore how music can be a way of speaking the Creed in today's present generation. María, as we are working together on the spiritual life for the upcoming conference, María sits mainly with those who are working on the text, and I sit over with those who are on the music side. And I think one of the things that I have found, and María I guess can speak of the text side of the reflection, but from a musical point of view, it has certainly been very inspiring to see the various settings of the Creed that we have received. Some musicians have lamented it's a very difficult text to set line upon line. And then you see others who have used the text as a means of inspiration and have created then appropriate language in a strophic form, very wonderful melodies. And that says to me that certainly, even though this is 1,700 years later, that today the potential for the text to still speak is certainly very valid and important.

Though historically the Council of Nicaea didn't end all the controversies, it was a significant step forward toward unity. One of the things I appreciate about the WCC's work is their most recent thinking about unity, with an emphasis on shared witness and service. I think these are also themes that we are trying to engage within the text and in this commemoration—that is, this common faith, but also the mission, the shared witness, the service to the world, and of course, the hope that this will foster and strengthen unity.

Thanks. And if I could just follow up with you, María, since Mikie's now shared that you're working a little bit more closely with the text side of things, just personally, as you consider the text of the Creed, is there a line or a section of the Creed that really stands out to you as significant personally in your own life of faith?

Well, it's a beautiful text, but if I had to choose the line, there is something about the line “God from God, light from light, true God from true God” that is not only deep and substantial in terms of our belief about the person of Jesus, but also it's so beautifully said. It's this doxological, this poetic form, but also all this beauty that is followed by the incarnation and the salvific work of Jesus. And I think that it's always important to have this nature, Jesus’ nature, Jesus’ mission in mind, the true God, and also the human in solidarity with humanity. And so I love that. But I love all the text, in fact.

Well, I'm glad you mentioned that line, too, because just the other day I was telling some students here at Calvin University about these podcasts that I'm recording with different guests about the Nicene Creed, and just spontaneously two of the students who were there in unison started quoting “God from God, light from light, true God from true God.” That's such a beautiful line that resonates with so many people.

As I reflect on this question, it's like, as a musician and a hymnologist, it's asking me what's your favorite hymn? And I would say, it depends on which day you ask me. But for me, especially where I am right now, it’s actually the last line. And I'll tell you why, Noel. Yesterday, I actually sat and watched the funeral service of one of my Moravian colleagues who was laid to rest. She and her husband were a Moravian clergy couple, and she was only fifty-eight years old with two children and a husband surviving her. And as I was preparing for our conversation today, that last line, “We look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life in the age to come,” I think is probably in this season, on this day, is the line that resonates more so with me. And I think too, I'm sort of doing a double take, because whilst sitting and watching a funeral for a close colleague and friend, just a few months ago I went back home with all of my siblings to celebrate my mother's ninetieth birthday. And so in that moment of celebration, you also realize you are celebrating and marking a major milestone for someone at ninety. And in that moment, in the midst of the cake cutting and all of that, you also realize your own mortality. It is a kind of bitter double celebration because you see your mother aging, that she's not as fast as she used to be and so on. And yet in the midst of all of this, I think this sense of hope, the hope of the resurrection, is something that is not an option for us. We don't opt out of it, and I think when we also look at all that is happening in our world around us right now it is that same hope of resurrection that I think is so urgently needed in order for us to push past some of what we see and to really believe that this hope really has to be the source and the very energy of all that we believe, and that this is not the end. There is a postscript. There is something else to look forward to.

Amen. Amen. And the beauty of that line also—the way that it's written in such a way that as we profess our faith in the hope of the resurrection and the life of the world to come, it creates that sense of expectancy. It puts a spirit of hope in the mouth of the people who say it, and I love that line, and I think it's sorely needed, as you say. On that note, we've talked a little bit about the past significance, the historical significance, the present significance. I wonder if we could talk a little about the future. What are each of you, as you think about the future of the church, what are your hopes for the future of the church, especially with your perspective of being in this ecumenical space, and how does the Creed relate to those hopes—or does it?

Well, I would say that we cannot deny that we live in times of polarization, division in society in general, and even in churches. And so my hope is that the text of this creed and our belief in the doctrine of the Trinity will help us to strengthen this unity. The Trinity is the model of unity in diversity, in love and harmony, and I think this is an important doctrine, but it's a way to also mark the way to live and experience this unity in diversity. We are called to witness to God's goodness through our unity and love for each other.

Amen to that indeed. A little bit of a story—as a typical Moravian I would have been confirmed when I was twelve years old or thereabout. We had at that time, when I about fourteen or fifteen years old, a pastor who was extremely ecumenical. And I remember one Sunday he came and in the middle of worship in my village said, “This morning we will profess our faith in the words of the Nicene Creed.” And I still remember this awkward silence in the congregation as everybody looked at each other and figured out, “Has our pastor lost his marbles today?” And he realized what was happening, and he said, if you turn to page whatever at the front of the hymn book, there you will see the words. And so here I was, I'm a Moravian, a confirmed member, and only discovered the Nicene Creed later on because of course even during our confirmation class, it was the Apostles' Creed that was repeated Sunday after Sunday, which had become a part of the bloodstream. And so I constantly go back to that because I think one of the things that I'm hoping that the Creed can do for the future of the church is to really show just how common our faith is. And so for me, then, as a Moravian, coming from a historic peace church, to own the Nicene Creed and to let it be a beacon, an indicator, a compass of expressing my faith, and then to walk into, let's say, a divine liturgy with an Eastern Orthodox church, though I may not be able to come to share in the common table, at least I can still worship and pray within this setting and confess a common creed. There is still this sense of a unity that is, even though it has not yet been fully seen. There's this eschatological component, but there's the reality of it, because with all of the things that may be termed divisive, at least as one coming from a particular branch of the Christian family, I can then join in the text which affirms this same faith, which this community of faith is also expressing. And so here again, I think the Creed serves as a way of pointing to this visible unity and for us to therefore see that visible unity may not or should not only be measured by whether or not we’re able to share in the one table, but that the fact that we can share in one confession:  one church, one faith, one Lord. And so how do we then use this moment, 1,700 years later, as not only pointing to the need for visible unity among Christians, but also celebrating that our capacity to join together in this creed is already part of our testimony, of our common witness that we refer to our common service as members of the body of Christ. So to me, that is very affirming from a broader perspective. But I think I also want to bring it down, if I can, also to the individual. And I think one of the things that I am most hopeful for is for this commemoration to give this generation, Gen Z—I'm not too sure which part of the alphabet we are now, but you know I'm talking about those who are growing up with iPads and those in the iGeneration—for them to also see we can offer you language that affirms your faith, especially at a point in time when a generation is struggling with articulating faith, with trying to figure out what is true, what is not true, what is fake, what is authentic. And here we can say to them, “Even if you cannot maybe find the full expression of the theological depth, and even though you may not understand all of the nuances of this poetry that is 1,700 years old, here is a creed that provides a text that can be seen as an expression of the fundamentals of what we believe as Christians. And I think that then ought to serve as an anchor, especially not only for the future of the church in terms of the ongoing pilgrimage toward unity, but also to fortify and to serve as a buttress to a generation that may be still trying to figure out how to best articulate its faith. And while this may not be something that you put on Instagram because it's a creed that cannot be done in a few characters, it however points to what can be attainable. And I think that came home very forcefully to us here at the WCC this year, because for the week of prayer for Christian unity, we of course focused on the Creed and the [monastic] community at Bose created the material for us. And after we received the material, we here at the WCC then for the first time decided to take on the challenge of creating a child-friendly version of the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity. So we brought together some child theologians, and it was amazing how they took this very dense material—and the name that they gave it was so simple and yet so profound: “Praying Together to the God of Togetherness.” And as I read the documents that they shared with us, I said, wow, here you can now say to a six-year-old, “OK, light from light, true God from true God, begotten of one . . .”—all of that scene. But you can then say to a six-year-old, “Through this text, we are praying together to the God of togetherness, that perfect community, which María spoke of, of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And so I think this for me is a moment of tremendous hope, because the creed offers something for the church universal, for the church local, but I think it also offers something for the individual believer who may be wrestling and struggling with not only understanding one's faith, but also seeking to articulate it, especially within a market space and place where there are so many competing voices.

Well, Mikie and María, it has been a real pleasure to speak with you today. Thank you so much for taking the time.

Thank you. Thank you for the invitation. It's a good conversation. And let's do this again sometime soon.

Find resources related to the Nicene Creed and more at our website, worship.calvin.edu.